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Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 12:32:12 PM
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Grace71
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Hi guys! There is a big thread going on about men's minds and thier percieved weakness when it comes to women and modesty. In most churches there is a mind set that men are weak minded and we women have to be very careful as to how we dress/act etc. Here is part of one post-
quote:
This is exactly what I think most of us are trying to say. Here's another example-
On Monday I see Bob who is turned on by skirts, so that means I can't wear skirts on Monday. Tuesday I see Dave who is turned on by pants, so on Tuesday I can't wear pants. Wednesday I see Bill who gets turned on by makeup, so on Wednesday I can't wear makeup.....etc etc etc. I'd like to know how many of you think I need to place myself in this much bondage cause they can't control themselves? I'm sorry but that's just a bit ridiculous.
Many of the women think we do you guys a disservice by thinking/assuming you are weak minded in this area.
Do you men expect women to become subject to every weakness you have? How much responsibility is our and how much is yours?
(Edited to add- I am not talking about women in tube tops or short shorts etc.)
< Message edited by Grace71 -- 1/27/2010 12:49:53 PM >
_____________________________
Leaving today, August 6th, for 2 months for work, will be home at the end of September. Please keep me in your prayers for safe travel and successful work.
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 12:43:40 PM
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stamper_ben
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It is our responsibility to know our weaknesses and depend on Someone other than ourselves to overcome them. With God all things are possible.
_____________________________
In 20 years from now, you’ll be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Explore. Dream. Discover
Mark Twain
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 1:14:34 PM
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Silas_Barnaby
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
quote:
This is exactly what I think most of us are trying to say. Here's another example-
On Monday I see Bob who is turned on by skirts, so that means I can't wear skirts on Monday. Tuesday I see Dave who is turned on by pants, so on Tuesday I can't wear pants. Wednesday I see Bill who gets turned on by makeup, so on Wednesday I can't wear makeup.....etc etc etc. I'd like to know how many of you think I need to place myself in this much bondage cause they can't control themselves? I'm sorry but that's just a bit ridiculous.
I wonder if this is a real situation or if its just a border-line paranoid judgment blown out of proportion. If it is indeed real then they need to get out of there. Nobody should have to put up with that kind of nonsense.
_____________________________
...it is possible to be perfectly right on a superficial level, and wrong in the things that matter most in life
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 1:18:11 PM
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jhuperetes
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Ben is correct.
I am Christian, not Muslim. I do not depend on women to be modest.
I presume the women in the world (and sometimes in the church) will be immodest.
I try to take precautions so I have little to worry about.
I take responsibility for my own actions, thoughts and emotions.
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 1:19:41 PM
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Grace71
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Silas, some women actually think that if we know say, ten men, and everything they may struggle with, then its the women's responsibility to make sure we don't do whatever may cause them to stumble/lust.
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Leaving today, August 6th, for 2 months for work, will be home at the end of September. Please keep me in your prayers for safe travel and successful work.
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 2:43:02 PM
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MWD
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Though I'm with Ben one hundred percent on the notion that it's up to us to handle, I think I would've said, "It's up to us to handle situations where we find ourselves attracted to someone." Because otherwise, you start getting into the realm of men as victims of how a woman has dressed -- and that's absurd on the face of it. Victimhood suggests robbery, rape, discrimination, and so forth. The "really serious business," in other words. To suggest a man might be a "victim" of, for example, a short skirt and heels, would imbue the male sex with a very unflattering sense of fragility. Can we all agree we're a heck of a lot tougher than that? (And if there are statistical outliers in that population, that it's they, not the women, who have the homework to do?)
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Wayne Brighthall
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 6:04:55 PM
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hdsnprry
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Women in general are beautiful no matter what they have own, so it is up to me to control my thoughs. If women didn't wear that type of apparel or never had worn high heels and started wearing burlap sacks, you would still have men that would have problems with what you had on.
< Message edited by hdsnprry -- 1/27/2010 10:13:47 PM >
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 6:46:31 PM
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thebaker
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i think women should dress for themselves, not for others. when i lived in new york i saw everything. orthodox jewish women covered from neck to ankle on one end all the way to women wearing 'a whole lot of not enough'. both forms of dress are appealing to me. but i'm mature enough to know that the woman did not dress for me. and i know that for a fact because she doesn't even know me and i just happened to pass her. when that happens, it's up to me and God to work together to keep me from letting my thoughts go all the way over to left field. and one thing that often comes to my mind is that this woman is not here for me to lust after. and to do so would be an injustice to her.and what Jesus said about lusting and it's the same as having sex with her rings true for me.
i would prefer to see women dressed modestly BUT women have the freedom to dress as they please. not to mention, what's modest and non-tempting to me, could be immodest or tempting to someone else.
i do think we all (men and women) should consider others when we dress. for example, the miniskirt that gets worn when hanging out with whoever wherever is fine BUT it would not be a good idea to wear it when you're teaching in front of a classroom full of 8th grade boys. when i taught, we had a 5th/6th grade teacher who used to wear mini skirts. i'm not one for paying attention to people's clothes unless it somehow sticks out. the mini skirt never stuck out for me...except on windy days when she would pick her class up from the yard and had to hold down her dress with her hands. and i think that was the only time her skirt stuck out to most of us because we could all see her fighting to keep her skirt down and there was nothing else she could do with her hands and teachers wondered what the boys in her class were thinking at that moment. after awhile she stopped wearing them. someone must've said something to her about it.
_____________________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
-Dr. Seuss
"Map out your future, but do it in pencil."
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 10:05:05 PM
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georgerobbyjr
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quote:
Many of the women think we do you guys a disservice by thinking/assuming you are weak minded in this area.
Do you men expect women to become subject to every weakness you have? How much responsibility is our and how much is yours?
(Edited to add- I am not talking about women in tube tops or short shorts etc.)
Well it's the man's job to control himself for sure. However, how tight were those pants and how short was the skirt? Women should be able to wear nice clothing that makes them look good but not super sexy attire either, especially in the church. Make up? That guy should control himself!
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/27/2010 10:48:09 PM
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stamper_ben
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What if we were to visit a culture where topless was the standard, like a new founded church in the jungles of Borneo for example? Is it up to us to adapt to the culture there, or up to them to adapt to us?
_____________________________
In 20 years from now, you’ll be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Explore. Dream. Discover
Mark Twain
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/28/2010 7:57:42 AM
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jhuperetes
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Depends on the weather!
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/28/2010 11:22:50 AM
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KaptZ
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From: The swamps of Jersey
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Men, and women, are solely responsible for their own actions and thoughts.
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/28/2010 9:35:38 PM
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DNP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
What if we were to visit a culture where topless was the standard, like a new founded church in the jungles of Borneo for example? Is it up to us to adapt to the culture there, or up to them to adapt to us?
I was going to ask a similar question about topless beaches in much of the world. In these countries I don't find men are staring down the women. In some cultures of the world the neck is considered to be very sexual. In other cultures when I swim I must be covered from my knee to my navel. Men and women may not be able to swim together either. Modesty is relative.
A woman CANNOT cause a man to stumble. Only he can do that. His weakness is his problem. I know illegal drugs are all around me. Yet I am the one who is at fault if I buy them. I can't blame the dealer. Likewise I can't blame the liquor store for having posters with bikini-clad women pushing alcohol. It is up to me to purchase the booze.
The men who are weak and stumbling need to grow up. Or perhaps they should get medical help.
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/28/2010 10:39:45 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 4843
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Or Spiritual help...
_____________________________
In 20 years from now, you’ll be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Explore. Dream. Discover
Mark Twain
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/28/2010 11:09:37 PM
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DNP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Or Spiritual help...
Correction; needs spiritual, mental and physical help 
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/29/2010 11:11:17 AM
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Grace71
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I'm amazed at the difference between what men think about this subject and what women think. Do you find it insulting or demeaning that we think you may be 'weak' in this area?
_____________________________
Leaving today, August 6th, for 2 months for work, will be home at the end of September. Please keep me in your prayers for safe travel and successful work.
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/29/2010 11:29:38 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 4843
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quote:
Do you find it insulting or demeaning that we think you may be 'weak' in this area? I don't really give a hoot what others think of me. It's who I am in Jesus and what He thinks of me that matters. As Paul wrote, when I am weak, He is strong. My strength to overcome my weaknesses comes from Him, for that I am happy.
_____________________________
In 20 years from now, you’ll be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Explore. Dream. Discover
Mark Twain
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/29/2010 2:15:56 PM
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DNP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
I'm amazed at the difference between what men think about this subject and what women think. Do you find it insulting or demeaning that we think you may be 'weak' in this area?
You are right Grace71, it is truly amazing. At least in some circles, it seems some of the Christian women seem to oversexualize males and make excuses for bad behavior and thinking. Some claim we are inherently weak. In much of the secular world (workplace) the standards for how we men are to behave is higher. Go figure!
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/30/2010 6:35:32 PM
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MWD
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> Do you find it insulting or demeaning that we think you may be 'weak' in
> this area?
Nah. As a matter of fact, sometimes I find it humorous. I'm pretty outgoing and can start talking to anyone for no reason at all other than her being within shouting distance and apparently not studying for a law exam at the moment, and sometimes after a minute or so the woman will start finding excuses to raise her hand up past her chin, again and again, waving it like a flag as if to say, "Ring! Ring on finger! See it yet?!? Ring on finger!" Or she'll find a way to cram "my husband" into the conversation in the next thirty seconds. I usually don't pick up on it right away -- 'cause I'm a guy, after all. Hey, look... I know most males need wave-offs like that 'cause they're pigs. But I also know I'm not one of those and never have been, and that's all I need.
_____________________________
Wayne Brighthall
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/30/2010 10:27:32 PM
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hdsnprry
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MWD that is so true i have had that happen to me quite a few times, I do understand were the women are coming from most of them probably have been hit on so much by guys, that it becomes a natural instinct to show that ring. My coversations with them have never been like [ you are so beautiful ] or anything like that, it is like, hows life, but i have made some new friends this way, had a few ladies try to set me up with some of there friends. oh well...
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 1/31/2010 5:48:26 PM
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Gigem08
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I agree with most of you for the most part however, it is nice to be able to see women who are dressed beautifully and modestly at the same time. I do like to look at women and appreciate beauty (in a God-honoring way) and it sucks because I know my weaknesses (though I have been actively working on this area and am actually doing pretty well here) and oftentimes I have to make myself look the other way because I don't want to entertain even the potential for that bad thought. Praise God I've been clean from a certain multi-billion dollar industry for over 8 months.
I understand it is my responsibility of where I place my eyes, but would it really hurt you to make my job a little easier and just dress a little more modestly?
I'm not asking for an ankle length skirt or baggy jeans or a t-shirt thats two sizes too big, I would ask that you refrain from mini-skirts, Daisy-duke shorts, and shirts that show off a bunch of cleavage.
_____________________________
Jonathan S. Wilder
I only ask that you be real...
(Me)
(Please call me Jonathan, THANKS!)
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 2/1/2010 11:23:17 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1022
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
Hi guys! There is a big thread going on about men's minds and thier percieved weakness when it comes to women and modesty. In most churches there is a mind set that men are weak minded and we women have to be very careful as to how we dress/act etc. Here is part of one post-
quote:
This is exactly what I think most of us are trying to say. Here's another example-
On Monday I see Bob who is turned on by skirts, so that means I can't wear skirts on Monday. Tuesday I see Dave who is turned on by pants, so on Tuesday I can't wear pants. Wednesday I see Bill who gets turned on by makeup, so on Wednesday I can't wear makeup.....etc etc etc. I'd like to know how many of you think I need to place myself in this much bondage cause they can't control themselves? I'm sorry but that's just a bit ridiculous.
Many of the women think we do you guys a disservice by thinking/assuming you are weak minded in this area.
Do you men expect women to become subject to every weakness you have? How much responsibility is our and how much is yours?
(Edited to add- I am not talking about women in tube tops or short shorts etc.)
This is a good question and I engaged some CW women about this a while back.
On one hand, it is every Christian man's responsibility to control his thoughts/desires. If he sees a curvy woman, he has no excuse to suddenly go into a feast of sinful lust in his mind because he's seen her. The Bible explicitly commands believers to subject all thoughts to the captivity of Christ, and it also teaches us that we have been crucified w/ Christ, and the lives we now live in the flesh, we are to live through faith in Jesus. The Bible further states that we can do all things through Christ who gives us strength, and that includes victory over lust & impure thoughts.
Having said all this, women should use some propriety and modesty when dressing. I'd prefer a sister in Christ not to wear miniskirts or overly revealing/low-cut tops at church especially if they are physically gifted.
I don't think a woman should wear a burka - far from it.
But, let me excerpt a testimony from a wonderful and solid Christian website, www.bible.com, to make my point. Moderators, I assume this cutting & pasting is allowed as per TOS; if not, please moderate this post as required.
How did our world arrive at a time in history that has so much emphasis on sexual perversions? This did not happen overnight. When the church failed to maintain a holy standard and example to the world, the world's evil influence gained momentum and now has saturated our society. Little by little, the church lowered her standards. Instead of the church influencing the world, the opposite happened, the world influenced the church. The church began to watch movies that each year became a little more dirty, a little more violent, a little more immoral, a little more deviant, a little more crazy and a little more erotic. Now today, there are unspeakable things on film that come directly from hell. They were inspired by the devil himself. These "little foxes" are now raging wolves. Sin and evil are progressive. Several layers of gray have now become black.
An example of how this happened in the area of women's dress, would be to observe the progression of women's styles. Women's hem lines have gone up while the necklines have gone down. It didn't start by going from ankle length to above the knees overnight. It took years for the ladies in the church to gradually adopt this revealing attire that others were wearing. Most Christian women on stage look no different than those in Hollywood. I am not saying that we should wear our hair in buns with no make-up. However we don't have to look like the women of the world. We can be stylish and attractive without being immodest and lustful in our dress. Today young girls come to prayer meetings in shorts and crop tops and never think any thing about it. Before you call me prudish ( I will admit I am old fashioned, yet in my school days we didn't experience the sexual violence that is happening today), let me share where I am going with this.
My husband and I, while pastoring the church, prayed with many young and not-so-young men, who were deeply disturbed as they were having problems keeping their minds on the Lord. The distraction ---- pretty young girls who would attend services in shorts, ultra tight jeans, short skirts, or low cut dresses. The men did not want these lustful feelings and were sincerely fighting to keep their thoughts pure. Most of the young girls were totally oblivious to the fact that they could be contributing to a man's temptation toward lust. I remember an incident when several people were gathered around a man to pray for him for healing. One of the young girls who wore a sleeveless and low cut top kneeled down at his feet while others stood in a circle around him to pray. I happened to be standing over her and looking down as we started to bow our heads and pray I could see her breasts above her low cut bra. The thought came to me how these young men must struggle to pray when they could see the same view as I saw.
This, sisters, the bolded part, is what I'm getting at. There should be a balance: men who are strong and who resist temptation and who FIGHT and BATTLE to be pure & holy, and women who dress modestly.
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 2/1/2010 10:34:17 PM
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DNP
Posts: 910
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quote:
There are many men I know - even church leaders - that look at everything they see through sexual lenses. Life is sexual to them. In those cases, it has nothing to do with how you (women) are dressed and everything to do with the fact that you are female. The problem is at their end, not yours. I understand that, and accept the fact that I will generally be lumped in with the stereotypical male-lusting-slime.
Well, if someone tells you something is every xxxxxxx's (you fill in the blank) problem/struggle/etc, run! Stereotypes about males, females, blacks, whites, Jews, gentiles, Catholics, southerners, northerners, Europeans, whatever do a lot of harm and have no place in the church. Can you imagine someone writing a book called alcoholism titled every Irishman's struggle?! How about a book claiming all Catholics make an Idol out of the Pope titled, "Every Catholics Struggle"? It would be hard to get a publisher for such garbage. Everyone is different. Sure some people may have a problem with lust. Some may have a problem with substance abuse. Others might have a bad temper. Another maybe greed or gluttony. So never allow someone to lump you in with anybody. If you don't speak up the stereotype will continue
As for people who look at life through a sexual lenses... I feel sorry for them, because to me that means they have an unhealthy mind. They may not be sex addicts but they may be sexually paranoid, if I can use a phrase. Paranoia can be as bad as addiction. Okay lets take real life. I am from the supposedly "wicked" northeast of the U.S., whatever that means. Even in churches I go to in New York City there is a dress code. We don't allow sleazy "Jerry Springer" cloths, especially on someone near the pulpit. I have lived in several supposedly "wicked" countries that allow topless/nude swimming. At the beach everyone was used to seeing people with varies amount of clothing, very routine. Even in those countries, a dress code existed in church.
What a lot of people don't understand is that a man growing up now has seen so much that it is desensitizing. I can't remember how many guns I have seen fired in TV or movies. How many people have I seen killed in war documentaries? How many human bodies have I seen; in paintings, sculptures, at the beach, in TV ads, billboards, motion pictures, etc.? So when I do see a woman dressed like a prostitute she is just part of the "background noise" I see everyday. If I am in a subway, she is part of the daily "noise". If I am in church or work that is another issue altogether…
To me at least, I don't see it as a "self control" issue. I feel it is matter of respect. Tight skimpy outfits look bad on either gender. Guys wearing open shirts with chains embedded in chest hair and spray-on tight pants or worse "plumber's crack" is not exactly a good look to have in church either. At least to me. The church should be respected at least to the level of a job.
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RE: Men and self control in regards to women - 2/2/2010 6:12:20 PM
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vikingfan
Posts: 117
Joined: 1/24/2008
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Let me put it this way...it's well known that for women, they are particularly sensitive to touch...it's what gets their engines going. If a man starts petting a woman in a way that gets her mind going inappropriately, is he at fault when she is responsible to 'keep her mind pure'? I think its a little bit of a parallel. Obviously some touching is unavoidable (such as in a prayer circle) but the principle is the same, I think, the struggle is just different.
I think the best parallel might be for a woman...what are you most susceptible to spiritually where if it was placed before you often you would have a hard time seeking the Lord? Would you not appreciate if your friends, to the best of their ability, tried to keep you walking with the Lord as best as possible? That's the parallel I draw.
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