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[Poll]
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Can the NT exist without the OT?
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| I don't know |
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| Tell me |
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| What is the relevance? |
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| no |
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| yes |
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Total Votes : 50
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(last vote on : 5/26/2010 9:13:00 AM)
(Poll will run till: 1/1/2011 12:00:00 AM)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 3:06:38 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
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How do you get that from what I said?
I am saying Jesus was never in danger of failing to fulfill. The prophesies and types and shadows were put in place to demonstrate and reveal Truth to dull-headed mankind. Saying, "what if He had not fulfilled..." is SILLY. That was never a possibility. It dilutes who the I AM is. HOLY. PERFECT.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 3:26:02 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2648
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
How do you get that from what I said?
I am saying Jesus was never in danger of failing to fulfill. The prophesies and types and shadows were put in place to demonstrate and reveal Truth to dull-headed mankind. Saying, "what if He had not fulfilled..." is SILLY. That was never a possibility. It dilutes who the I AM is. HOLY. PERFECT.
It is not silly. It is ignorant. There is a huge difference. It is important that we have an answer to this question, for those who are ignorant of who Yeshua is need us to guide them into the truth. If we call the questioning of Yeshua's deity silly, "dull-headed mankind" will cease to enquire. Therefore, it is important that we not expect others to act presumptiously, but trust that our faith can withstand the honest question, even if it appears silly from our prospective.
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"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 3:33:39 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
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Even the bible calls foolishness, foolishness etc.
Mankind IS dull headed. I was not referring to people questioning here, I was referring to the POV that elevates the "proofs" above Christ.
The word silly is a lot more benign than "ignorant".
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 4:00:54 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2648
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Even the bible calls foolishness, foolishness etc.
Mankind IS dull headed. I was not referring to people questioning here, I was referring to the POV that elevates the "proofs" above Christ.
The word silly is a lot more benign than "ignorant".
Again that is easy for one who is convinced that Yeshua is Adonai Elohiem. I do not use ignorant as a pajorative, but a descriptive term, meaning lacking knowledge or information. That is not necessarily something to be ashamed of. However, silly is a light hearted reference to one who acts in an irrational manner. We don't need to get into an argument about definitions. My only point is that puitting faith in one who has not proven himself trustworthy is never wise. When it comes to one who claims to be Adonai, this is even more important.
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"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 4:20:34 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
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We are believers discussing theology.
from Websters
Main Entry: sil·ly
Pronunciation: \ˈsi-lē\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): sil·li·er; sil·li·est
Etymology: Middle English sely, silly happy, innocent, pitiable, feeble, from Old English sǣlig, from sǣl happiness; akin to Old High German sālig happy
Date: 14th century
1 archaic : helpless, weak
2 a : rustic, plain b obsolete : lowly in station : humble
3 a : weak in intellect : foolish b : exhibiting or indicative of a lack of common sense or sound judgment <a very silly mistake> c : trifling, frivolous
4 : being stunned or dazed <scared silly> <knocked me silly>
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 7:54:34 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 509
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It may seem like a small distinction, but if we look at it from the POV that Jesus needed to succeed, not fail to live up to the prophesies and types and shadows for that matter, then we demote the quality, the purity of who I AM is.
Are you saying that it would have made no difference if Adonai Yeshua had done something other than what He said He would do? Even if one accepts this view with regard to His sovereignty, this would seriously undermine His credibility with regard to everything else He said.
Amen. Just call me a cheer leader... lol
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 8:02:15 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It may seem like a small distinction, but if we look at it from the POV that Jesus needed to succeed, not fail to live up to the prophesies and types and shadows for that matter, then we demote the quality, the purity of who I AM is.
Are you saying that it would have made no difference if Adonai Yeshua had done something other than what He said He would do? Even if one accepts this view with regard to His sovereignty, this would seriously undermine His credibility with regard to everything else He said.
Amen. Just call me a cheer leader... lol
Seriously, Bluethread and Lochem_Eved_lAdonai, I expected post 69 to be taken as a point of AGREEMENT.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 8:25:50 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 509
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It may seem like a small distinction, but if we look at it from the POV that Jesus needed to succeed, not fail to live up to the prophesies and types and shadows for that matter, then we demote the quality, the purity of who I AM is.
Are you saying that it would have made no difference if Adonai Yeshua had done something other than what He said He would do? Even if one accepts this view with regard to His sovereignty, this would seriously undermine His credibility with regard to everything else He said.
Amen. Just call me a cheer leader... lol
Seriously, Bluethread and Lochem_Eved_lAdonai, I expected post 69 to be taken as a point of AGREEMENT.
Yes at least I agree with you that The Word didn't have to Fulfill the Words of the Word... But then He wouldn't have been the Word... now say that three times fast.... LOL
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 8:58:33 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It may seem like a small distinction, but if we look at it from the POV that Jesus needed to succeed, not fail to live up to the prophesies and types and shadows for that matter, then we demote the quality, the purity of who I AM is.
Are you saying that it would have made no difference if Adonai Yeshua had done something other than what He said He would do? Even if one accepts this view with regard to His sovereignty, this would seriously undermine His credibility with regard to everything else He said.
Amen. Just call me a cheer leader... lol
Seriously, Bluethread and Lochem_Eved_lAdonai, I expected post 69 to be taken as a point of AGREEMENT.
Yes at least I agree with you that The Word didn't have to Fulfill the Words of the Word... But then He wouldn't have been the Word... now say that three times fast.... LOL
I think you two expect me to be in disagreement so much, that's what you hear.
I'm not saying "He didn't have to if He didn't want to, but how nice that He followed through."
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 9:19:04 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 509
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It may seem like a small distinction, but if we look at it from the POV that Jesus needed to succeed, not fail to live up to the prophesies and types and shadows for that matter, then we demote the quality, the purity of who I AM is.
Are you saying that it would have made no difference if Adonai Yeshua had done something other than what He said He would do? Even if one accepts this view with regard to His sovereignty, this would seriously undermine His credibility with regard to everything else He said.
Amen. Just call me a cheer leader... lol
Seriously, Bluethread and Lochem_Eved_lAdonai, I expected post 69 to be taken as a point of AGREEMENT.
Yes at least I agree with you that The Word didn't have to Fulfill the Words of the Word... But then He wouldn't have been the Word... now say that three times fast.... LOL
I think you two expect me to be in disagreement so much, that's what you hear.
I'm not saying "He didn't have to if He didn't want to, but how nice that He followed through."
so (in order to be redundantly sure) you agree then with us on this point?
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 9:33:55 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
Status: offline
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The prophesies were vitally important. Because God set them up. Because it was His demonstration. They were NOT a LITMUS test FOR Jesus. They were for the demonstration and revealing of what God was doing.
Therefore, the question "What if Jesus had NOT fulfilled them..." is pointless. That was never a possibility.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 10:11:28 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 509
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
The prophesies were vitally important. Because God set them up. Because it was His demonstration. They were NOT a LITMUS test FOR Jesus. They were for the demonstration and revealing of what God was doing.
Therefore, the question "What if Jesus had NOT fulfilled them..." is pointless. That was never a possibility.
true in the sense that they were just how we were to recognize Him. They were put there for US. NOT Him. Yet in examining what those prophesies say about Yeshua and the Commands that He fulfilled one gets a clearer picture of who He was and is. "Yeshua HaMashiakh (Jesus the Christ), the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever."
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 10:41:50 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2648
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
The prophesies were vitally important. Because God set them up. Because it was His demonstration. They were NOT a LITMUS test FOR Jesus. They were for the demonstration and revealing of what God was doing.
Therefore, the question "What if Jesus had NOT fulfilled them..." is pointless. That was never a possibility.
I acknowledge your intent and, please, don't think that my disagreement is a sign of distain. If I did not respect your position as an honest view, I would not bother commenting on it. However, If Yeshua had not meet the requirements, He would either not be Adonai or we would have no hope, because we could not know whether Adonai might change the Promise and how many times He would change it. This would leave us with no assurance of salvation. Understanding this is important because it is why some people continue in apostacy even when they are faced with sound arguments to the contrary. It often appears safer to stick with bad doctrine than risk the possibility of finding out that bad doctrine is all there is. This latter is not the case, but in many cases one must discard ones doctrine before one can be sure of the soundness of an alternative doctrine. This leaves one figuratively hanging in mid air until one is able to accept the differenet view.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 10:48:31 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
Status: offline
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I did not say it would have been okay if the requirements had not been met. 
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/4/2010 11:10:43 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
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The possibility denies the character of Christ.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 2:15:50 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2648
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
The possibility denies the character of Christ.
No, it merely questions whether or not Yeshua is HaMeshiach and it does so by comparing Yeshua's words and deeds to the character of HaMeshiach. If Yeshua is not HaMeshiach, such inquiry will serve to guard the character of HaMeshiach. If Yeshua is HaMeshiach, which I believe He is, such an inquiry will affirm that character. Refusing to inquire denies that the character of HaMeshiach can withstand such inquiry. Engaging in such inquiry affirms ones faith in the character of HaMeshiach. Simply declaring Yeshua as HaMeshiach confirms or denighs nothing, for that is not man's right. Only Adonai Himself can declare HaMeshiach as He did at the Yarden(Jordan river), if we can believe the report of the Apostles.
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"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 1:47:38 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
Status: offline
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Inquiry need not be made by all to be valid. We are not seekers wrestling with matters here. We are believers and it is our responsibility to maintain correct doctrine.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 2:32:18 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2311
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Inquiry need not be made by all to be valid. We are not seekers wrestling with matters here. We are believers and it is our responsibility to maintain correct doctrine.
actually it is our responsibility to love God and love each other.
And there are those who are wrestling with matters here. To think otherwise is to pretend that all are mature, and have the mind of Christ on things. If so, there'd be no violent disagreement and no slander.
It saddens me that some may show up on some threads and not see a clear respresentation of Christians attempting to come to agreement. Rather they will see petty fighting and wrangling with words by some.
May we recall our first position as Children of God is to love God and then love each other.
The epistle of 1John makes this very, very plain.
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 2:43:57 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
Status: offline
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I'm am not objecting to discussion, wrestling etc, but to specific POV concerning the character of Christ.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 2:51:37 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2311
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
I'm am not objecting to discussion, wrestling etc, but to specific POV concerning the character of Christ.
Well, I would not characterize discussion as a person wrestling with issues as such. Discussion may happen because a person is wrestling with issues.
The character of Christ is the perfect human in submission to the will of the Father, operating by the power of the Holy Spirit of God. If we cannot discuss how that character of Christ was not accepted by those who were trapped by the Law and their Tradition, we are going to have to cut out some very real passages out of our Bibles - which I refuse to do.
Implications of what we think or think we believe, or think is true are serious. Many eschew the idea of theology but we all have a theology. That knowledge of God or lack thereof determines the way we think about everything else. I believe you would agree with that because of your responses here in this thread.
What am I misunderstanding?
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 4:12:17 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
Status: offline
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The only point I am saying NEEDS to be understood by believers is that the prophesies, types and shadows are GOD'S demonstration to the people for revelation. They were not a test FOR Jesus. To think that Jesus had the possibility of failing underestimates who Jesus is.
It's not, "Wow aren't we glad He didn't mess up His mission" it's, "Wow, we're so glad He is who He is and was guaranteed to succeed.
My assertion was largely inspired by what was expressed in post 60.
I do not object to discussion of theology! Seriously, if so, what would I be doing discussing it in depth?
And yes, correct doctrine is something we are to value, work for...2 Tim. 3.16-17
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 4:27:41 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 509
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
The only point I am saying NEEDS to be understood by believers is that the prophesies, types and shadows are GOD'S demonstration to the people for revelation. They were not a test FOR Jesus. To think that Jesus had the possibility of failing underestimates who Jesus is.
It's not, "Wow aren't we glad He didn't mess up His mission" it's, "Wow, we're so glad He is who He is and was guaranteed to succeed.
My assertion was largely inspired by what was expressed in post 60.
I do not object to discussion of theology! Seriously, if so, what would I be doing discussing it in depth?
And yes, correct doctrine is something we are to value, work for...2 Tim. 3.16-17
While I and others who are Messianic do Exult in the fact that He did fulfill those Scriptures we try to bring it out more in a place like this because I remember what it was like in Christendom.
I was NEVER taught exactly how MUCH was fulfilled in Yeshua until I came to Messianic Judaism. The Prophesies and Commandments have bolstered my faith in who He is and will be. BTW... Fulfilled doesn't mean Destroyed or Put aside or Nullified. It means COMPLETE.
The only thing removed by Yeshua is the Afterlife Separation from G-d (Spiritual Death) as long as Someone has accepted Yeshua.
One who murders had better be ready to accept the consequences of his actions. Physical Death. Yet he will be forever in the presence of G-d there on out If he accepted Yeshua. Kinda makes me envious in a way.
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 4:37:54 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1934
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
I was NEVER taught exactly how MUCH was fulfilled in Yeshua until I came to Messianic Judaism.
I grieve that this is all too common an experience. I was taught from childhood to recognize Christ in all of scripture beginning with Gen 1:1.
Because of this, I wish Messianic believers came here to share that understanding and insight, but sadly it's mostly about how wrong the "christians" perceive the practice of the law, or our relationship to the law. It's nearly secondary if occurring at all, to emphasize the revelation of Christ in the OT.
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"Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him." Luke 24:31
