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ORIGINAL: gralan

Frankman,

I agree with the direction your response is going, but for myself I am convinced that my real desire is to Know God and Please God, rather than trying to see if what I'm doing violates some principle or not.

In order to do that I had to know what the Word of God is, and after awhile now I'm beginning to think I've got a grasp of it like one of the blind men describing the elephant in that old parable. What I'm understanding is correct as much as I am capable of understanding at this moment, but I also need the help of others describing what they are understanding.

Now I've stirred up the mud enough.

I'm still convinced if we focus on what we get the privilege to do we will have little time worrying about whether or not we might mistakenly do something we aren't supposed to do.

But then again, I've been walking along this road with Jesus 40 eventful years. Its been a long and winding road... and the journey continues on the other side of the veil.

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ORIGINAL: RJR_fan

We are in the world, though we are not of the world. God's Kingdom is in this world, even as it is not of this world. God's authority is at work in this age, without the permission, consent, or license of those who consider themselves to be our gods. We can appeal to the Highest Court for justice, even while we work for justice using lesser courts.

We can use human means, even while admitting that they are not, in themselves, sufficient to further God's purposes. However, even insufficient means can be effectual. Five loaves and two fishes placed in the hands of Jesus fed a multitude one meal. True, all those folks were hungry and coming back for seconds the next day ... but in the ages since their bones have turned to dust, we still take heart, take courage, from the miracle of the loaves and fishes.

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How wold you define "worldliness"?

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ORIGINAL: Abbreviated


I think that people can be so heavenly minded they are no earthly good.

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has anybody ever met anybody that is so heavenly minded they are no earthly good?

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ORIGINAL: didymus101

In a number of threads that I either started or contributed to, I found that my view of what "our citizenship is of heaven" means is far more radical than a select few and usually mistaken to mean "hide in a prayer closet," "doing nothing," or "being so spiritually minded I am no earthly good." Far worse than this was also suggested, which both surprised and bothered me. I was surprised at the fact so many seemed never to have heard of "worldliness" and took it to be a gnostic belief, and it bothered me because feelings ran so high for what I considered "being friends with the world."

I had suspected that Christianity in this country had intertwined itself with Americanism but nowhere near the degree I found. The topics were emotionally charged--if the allegiance, as I saw it, was mistaken. I received what I felt was adequate verification of that fact.

Whatever is held and promulgated by the world in general as of value, must be immediately held by the Christian as being highly suspect. Treading lightly in such matters is not enough caution; we need to err to a much safer distance.

Being a "citizen of heaven" means there are no earthly borders or enemies: our love is for all those in the world, equally. Anything that may bias or prejudice such a view, and earnest caring, is "of the world." Anything that may inhibit or block the easy flow of that love for all, the complete and sacrificial love of Christ, is "of the world."
Anything that is "of the world" is an enemy of God.

Many seemingly sound arguments by well-respected teachers in the church for such things as patriotism and political activism and a special involvement in America because it is a "Christian nation" sound very convincing, and may be right (although I thoroughly disagree), yet these topics demand dedicated prayer and fasting continually, a complete openness and receptivity to spirit.

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ORIGINAL: didymus101

In a number of threads that I either started or contributed to, I found that my view of what "our citizenship is of heaven" means is far more radical than a select few and usually mistaken to mean "hide in a prayer closet," "doing nothing," or "being so spiritually minded I am no earthly good." Far worse than this was also suggested, which both surprised and bothered me. I was surprised at the fact so many seemed never to have heard of "worldliness" and took it to be a gnostic belief, and it bothered me because feelings ran so high for what I considered "being friends with the world."

I had suspected that Christianity in this country had intertwined itself with Americanism but nowhere near the degree I found. The topics were emotionally charged--if the allegiance, as I saw it, was mistaken. I received what I felt was adequate verification of that fact.

Whatever is held and promulgated by the world in general as of value, must be immediately held by the Christian as being highly suspect. Treading lightly in such matters is not enough caution; we need to err to a much safer distance.

Being a "citizen of heaven" means there are no earthly borders or enemies: our love is for all those in the world, equally. Anything that may bias or prejudice such a view, and earnest caring, is "of the world." Anything that may inhibit or block the easy flow of that love for all, the complete and sacrificial love of Christ, is "of the world."
Anything that is "of the world" is an enemy of God.

Many seemingly sound arguments by well-respected teachers in the church for such things as patriotism and political activism and a special involvement in America because it is a "Christian nation" sound very convincing, and may be right (although I thoroughly disagree), yet these topics demand dedicated prayer and fasting continually, a complete openness and receptivity to spirit.

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ORIGINAL: gralan

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I don't know exactly problem you have with patriotism. While America is not a Christian nation, in the sense that it is a theocracy, it was founded upon Christian principles and its laws generally follow Christian those principles. Evidence of this can be found in many of the documents of the founders, including the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers.

It seems to me that you may be confusing "being in the world" with "being of the world." There is a huge difference and I don't think I need to explain it further.

We are, at this point in time, in the world. This is a fact and no proclamation of "being a citizen of Heaven" is going to change that while we are on the right side of the grass. Until such time that we are taken away to be with the Lord, we are all going to be sinful human beings. That being said, we do not have to be of the world, though. We have the opportunity and the freedom to be Christians and to lead as Christian a life as we choose, as humans in America. This is guaranteed by our Constitution. Few, if any, other nations have the freedoms that we have. While America is not perfect, it has done more good for more other people than any other nation in history, given its citizens more rights and freedoms than any other country. Therefore, while I am "in the world," I shall remain a patriotic American.

Personally DaveMiller7, I would hope that you'd be a patriotic child of God, citizen of the Kingdom of God and just an ambassador of God's Kingdom to the United States.

But you know what you want to do. Please do not confuse my choosing first the kingdom of God, dave, as somehow being not patriotic to this country. I choose not to be a political chauvinist and to be an ambassador to the United States of the Kingdom of God.

What you do with the call of our great God and King is between you and your Master.

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Didymus101:
Worldliness is darkness. Anyone who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God. Our weapons are not of this world. Do not live by the standards of this world. For everything in the world...comes not from the father but from the world. The ways of the world are not worthy of us. Do not conform any longer to the patterns of the world. Regard no one from a worldly point of view. We are citizens of heaven.

How wold you define "worldliness"? Are the "weapons of the world" more than simply arms?
The above paragraph is excerpted from Scripture. What does this mean to you and what are some of the standards, principles, and values, as well as institutions, that are worldly and need to be avoided as Christians?

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ORIGINAL: didymus101

In a number of threads that I either started or contributed to, I found that my view of what "our citizenship is of heaven" means is far more radical than a select few and usually mistaken to mean "hide in a prayer closet," "doing nothing," or "being so spiritually minded I am no earthly good." Far worse than this was also suggested, which both surprised and bothered me. I was surprised at the fact so many seemed never to have heard of "worldliness" and took it to be a gnostic belief, and it bothered me because feelings ran so high for what I considered "being friends with the world."